Q: York County was recently in the news for a lawsuit involving the teaching of intelligent design. What’s your attitude regarding the teaching of evolution in public schools?
A: “I’m a Christian, and I believe in parents being able to provide children with religious instruction without interference from the state. But I also believe our schools are there to teach worldly knowledge and science. I believe in evolution, and I believe there’s a difference between science and faith. That doesn’t make faith any less important than science. It just means they’re two different things. And I think it’s a mistake to try to cloud the teaching of science with theories that frankly don’t hold up to scientific inquiry.”
That was Senator Barack Obama’s exchange with York Daily Record via Pastor Dan at Street Prophets. The conflict between faith and science has always been one to perplex me. I’ve never had a problem reconciling my faith and science. Although, some of my friends have but they have never gone as far as some on the religious right by calling for schools to stop teaching the theory of evolution.
The conflict comes from the creation story in Genesis in which God creates everything in six days then rests on the seventh. Why does the day have to mean a 24-hour period that we humans experience? In my theology God’s time is so much different than our time.
Furthermore, why try to impose a conservative religious belief onto an entire school district? Religious beliefs need to be taught at home and in the church while science and other academic matters are taught in school. Then the student can make up his or her own mind. Simple enough right?
Guess not, because here we are still having this debate and Barack Obama is asked about it.
While I’m a strong believer in freedom of religion, and I agree wholeheartedly with Obama regarding the parent’s right to teach their own children as they please, the only thing that belongs in a public school science classroom is science. Neither Creationism nor its recent incarnation, Intelligent Design qualify as science as neither one is falsifiable. Nor does either one actually add anything to our overall understanding. Science explains the unknown in term of the known, but because nothing is actually revealed about the “designer”, Intelligent Design only explains the unknown in the terms of the further unknown.
–Paul
http://progressiveworldreview.com
Obama gives a pretty good answer. It shows that he’s not paid a great deal of attention to this debate, but then he doesn’t come out of a conservative Christian background.
This is a major issue for those seeking to hold what they feel is a high view of Scripture. For it to be true then it must be “factual” in all that it says. The problem is the question Pilate raise: “What is Truth?” Many like me who have spent time in the conservative camp have recognized that fact and truth aren’t always the same thing!
I agree that science teachers should teach science. But “evolution” is the creation myth of secular humanism, so I am hopeful Paul will support its immediate removal from science classes.
Webster, I am glad that you agree that teachers should teach science. But your assertion that evolution is the creation myth of secular humanism is completely misleading. It is a scientific theory predicated upon research spanning hundreds of years that looks upon thousands of years of fossilized artifacts that show a progression in animal species.
Animals evolve to better adapt to their natural surroundings. It scientific theory just like the theory of gravity. In my belief it is the way that God created the earth… and scientific theories are ways in which human nature tries to understand the under laying ways of God.
as a christian I was really taken back by Mr Obama remarks concerning his thoughts on evolution. My belief is that God created us in his image not something that evolved from something completely different. With as many ministers, pastors and religious people attending the faith forum , I am surprised that no one questioned him further about his remarks.
Vern, thanks for your comments. I appreciate hearing about your faith and how it shapes your belief on how we became how we are today, whether it is literally in God’s image (like you believe) or through a process that takes many years.
Question for you - does Senator Obama’s thoughts on evolution shape your opinion on how he would lead this country if elected President?
Aaron, after some thought to your question my answer would be yes. I think it is healthy to be progressive, but to what purpose. You know the old saying” give them an inch and they will take a mile”. If his thoughts on evolution are that far out there, what next? For a little humor maybe he would want to consider putting a chimp( they are somewhat intellegent) as secretary of state into his future cabinet. After all are they not suppose to evolve into man.
Vern, thanks for responding. I don’t think his views on evolution are that far out there. In Sunday night’s Compassion Forum he spoke about how the more he learns about science the more he is mystified by the greatness of God.
That’s not too far out there in my opinion. I think it is more inline with most people of faith.
Aaron, I am in awe at your urbane and polite response to Vern.
Now, Vern.
”
If his thoughts on evolution are that far out there, what next?”
For one, I don’t see his thoughts on evolution ‘far out there’, the use of such terminology is mockery (which you also employ later on). He simply believes in evolution. To illustrate myself further I will give an analogy. Say I asked you the question “Do you believe in gravity”, and your answer was “Yes, I believe in gravity”, it would be ridiculous of me to claim that your belief in gravity was ‘out there’, no?
“For a little humor maybe he would want to consider putting a chimp( they are somewhat intellegent) as secretary of state into his future cabinet. After all are they not suppose to evolve into man.”
That’s ‘intelligent’. Yes, that’s a low blow. Now, your rhetorical question that hasn’t got a question mark is wrong. To illustrate my second point imagine a woman, who gives birth to two other women. Although these women share ancestry, one was not born from the other. In the same way, a group of apes, further back in our evolutionary lineage separated from another group, through different environment conditions, the same ape evolved into two different apes. One of these apes eventually evolved into humans (separate from the other apes), while the other ape eventually became what we call ‘chimps’. We share ancestry which is why we’re similar, but we did not evolve from them.
The reason I gave this lengthy explanation is because I see a lot of people making this assertion, and joking about it, but it isn’t right, and the more I see it, the more it annoys me.
Finally, you should be voting for and supporting the best candidate for the people as a whole, who will bring America forward while respecting everyones individual beliefs, not basing your entire vote on one thing, which you disagree with him about.
My two cents. If you have more assertions to make about evolution (which I reckon you do, since you fundies love to get together and mock something which 99.9% of you haven’t studied above grade school level), then I would be happy to hear them, and correct them, which is likely.
Ciao.
Dear Ciao, the last time I checked neither
creationism or evolution had been proven.
And is not science the effort to explain theories. So why not have both taught since
one of them has to be right. Next, if God
is powerful enough to creat a universe why
could He not do it in six 24 hour days. And
as we are discovering everyday trying to figure out how old something is, is more of an art than science. As he Bible says God has been forever and thus his thoughts are as old and
if He indeed did create the universe from his
thoughts then it is as old as God.
Mike
Mike Ross, please do not be offended, but your response demonstrates that you do not understand the basic principles of the scientific method. The scientific method simply outlines the process by which science is conducted. If you can’t work within that, then you’re not dealing with a science. And this is what it boils down to; not that Creationism is right or wrong, or even if the theory of Evolution is right or wrong, just that one is science and the other is not, which means one is appropriate for the science classroom and the other is not. Similarly, you wouldn’t generally expect a history class to include push-ups and jumping jacks.
“Dear Ciao, the last time I checked neither
creationism or evolution had been proven.”
Ignoring that verily, proof is a term that shouldn’t really be used when discussing Science, in the way that you are using it, yes evolution has been proven.
Please read. This is what evolution is:
Evolution is the change in the frequency of alleles from one generation to the next.
I’d venture to ask you if you knew at all what that meant? ‘Check’, I’m sure you’ll understand that that is 100% true, and to deny such would be akin to denying the existence of the sun.
What you have quarrels with, like so many other people, who strangely enough, nearly always seem to have old books telling them otherwise, is the theory of evolution.
I would once again venture to ask if you knew what the difference was, and you probably think a scientific theory is the same as a theory cooked up by anybody about anything. Well, it isn’t.
‘Check’, I’m sure you’ll find it isn’t. To say otherwise, would be akin to claiming that your anus is the elixir of life.
The theory of evolution is composed of two parts (for which their are many, many piles of evidence, for those with open eyes).
One, is random mutation. ‘Check’, I’m sure you’ll find it’s a completely valid and truthful premise. To deny it is to deny the existence of cancer. I’m sure you’re not THAT stupid. The second, is natural selection, once again I ask you to ‘check’, and you’ll once again conclude that yes, natural selection is an absurd to deny.
However, since I imagine you will deny it and in all probability won’t understand it, here’s a simple hypothetical story.
There are two birds on an island isolated and there are no edible fish for miles off at sea, where the only abundant and usable food source is nuts. One bird, has a beak that is brilliant and breaking the nuts and eating them, for instance a canary, while the other has a beak that was created for catching fish, for instance a pelican. Which bird is going to survive on the island? The canary, it will eat while the pelicans starve and die out. This, is natural selection.
If random mutation occurs within a sex cell, such as a sperm that then goes on to form a zygote, and then a chick in one of the birds. That mutation will be within that individual, what if the mutation causes the beak to change? Well, if it’s better at eating nuts, natural selection once again takes place, the bird survives much easier and eats much better. And the opposite would be true if its beak became better at eating something else.
I will not list the many pieces of evidence to suggest that the theory of evolution is the cause for our existence and the diversity of life on this planet. You can do that yourself. However, if like many people such as yourself, you find it hard to study something which you have already decided is wrong because a book has told you otherwise, I would gladly pander to your lazy close-mindedness and list some evidences for you to claim are false or worm your way around.
“And is not science the effort to explain theories. So why not have both taught since
one of them has to be right.”
Intelligent design is not a scientific theory and therefore could not be taught as Science. Only the idea of already having ones conclusion is ridiculous.
Next, if God is powerful enough to creat a universe why
could He not do it in six 24 hour days.”
This is without establishing that we need God to explain the existence of universe. If there is no evidence of his creating, (and don’t say we are) or any evidence of he himself, or even any way of describing or studying how God could have created, it is unreasonable to assert that he exists.
“And as we are discovering everyday trying to figure out how old something is, is more of an art than science.”
Pointless.
“As he Bible says God has been forever and thus his thoughts are as old and
if He indeed did create the universe from his
thoughts then it is as old as God.”
Then God is about 13.73 billion years old.
Occam’s Razor.
Look it up.
CIAO
Which clearly, isn’t my name, that’s why I filled in the name field with ‘Sam K’, perhaps you should be more observant. Or, you can happily stick to redundantly citing your name at the end of every post with a smarmy, pious undertone that is so common with you religious.
Please, don’t ignore my points, I’m not going to explain evolution, nor the theory of, again to someone who will all probability never accept it, and will likely die content in willful ignorance.
my question is this: How can you call yourself a “Christian” and believe in evolution?
Webster said:
I agree that science teachers should teach science. But “evolution” is the creation myth of secular humanism, so I am hopeful Paul will support its immediate removal from science classes.
So then, is anything science in your view? Or only what you happen to agree with. The theory of evolution is a falsifiable theory so therefore it is science and certainly belongs in a science classroom.
http://progressiveworldreview.com
Quite odd that some sub-religions of christianity, including the largest one (Catholic Church), take either a neutral position, or an approving position of evolution.
Evolution is considered by the Catholic Curch to be a scientifically proven fact, which does not conflict with religion, as it is now considered the passage of the bible which talks about creation of man in fact refers to God creating the soul of humans in his image.
It might be interesting to read this part of the Wikipedia entry about this :
“Catholic schools teach evolution, not theistic evolution, as part of their science curriculum. They teach the fact that evolution occurs and the modern evolutionary synthesis, which is the scientific theory that explains why evolution occurs. This is the same evolution curriculum that secular schools teach. Catholic schools do teach theistic evolution in their religion classes though. Bishop DiLorenzo of Richmond, chair of the Committee on Science and Human Values in a December 2004 letter sent to all U.S. bishops: ‘Catholic schools should continue teaching evolution as a scientific theory backed by convincing evidence. At the same time, Catholic parents whose children are in public schools should ensure that their children are also receiving appropriate catechesis at home and in the parish on God as Creator. Students should be able to leave their biology classes, and their courses in religious instruction, with an integrated understanding of the means God chose to make us who we are.’ ”
Religion and science can walk hand in hand, if only you’re willing to open your mind to facts, while leaving your heart open to faith.
Kind regards from Belgium,
Wim
Catholicism, ugh. A different discussion for sure.
Evolution actually *is* bad science. Back it up with scripture, if you believe them to be compatible. If you believe in an all-powerful God, then there simply is no basis for God to need to set into motion anything but relationship with humankind. My true feeling is that *you* can’t reconcile with the evolution + creation concept. The plain fact is that they are not compatible.
I do encourage you to *really* seek the truth. I think really digging in to evolution is scary for many people because it threatens their entire belief system. I think most Christian people would like to go on thinking there *is* a God even if there is not. However, seeking the truth, for real, is a process worth the discomfort.
If God is real, and the incarnate almighty God Jesus Christ died on a cross for our sins, then God will back up his word and reveal it. The simple truth is that you only need to simply accept the gift that Christ presents. You will find “proof” through life experience. Fact is, God isn’t going to come out and tell you that he is real. If he did, he’d remove one of the important things he created us for - freedom to choose.
I further challenge you to produce even a single transition fossil record. There aren’t any, and we have a large abundance of fossils these days in contrast to when Darwin’s dreamed up this big evolution concept.
Evolution puts a lot into the concept that we happened by chance. Can anything come from nothing? Can “matter” really come into existence when *nothing* precedes it? Really? Even the Nobel-prize winning leader of the Human Genome project claims it couldn’t have happened by chance - and further supports the concept of a higher power. And worse, if it DID happen by chance, why would we need God for anything?
Science currently confirms that DNA for a frog is not equal to a fish and not equal to a human. The Bible does support variations of a kind (as the Bible says that each was created according their kind) but not a frog going to a bird or any such nonsense. Comparing the common building blocks as in chemical DNA (e.g., humans evolved from hominids or even amoeba since the DNA is “close”) is as ridiculous as saying that trains came from trees. Sure, common stuff, but separately and uniquely different.
Evolution “science” isn’t.
If God didn’t mean the universe was created in six 24hrs days, WHY DID HE SAY IT WAS CREATED IN SIX DAYS?! Where in the world, in what period in time, were six days didn’t mean SIX days?
This is the type of nonsensical pretzel twisting of definitions that people must goto to believe in what is clearing nonsense.
The universe was NOT created in SIX days, and a teenaged girl was not convinced to eat a fruit by a talking snake. Noah could not have fitted a zoo into a boat nor can people turn into pillars of salt. This is the 21st century, such infantile myths must be understood for what they are.
Lastly, evolution HAS been proven. Evolution is a fact. Life EVOLVES. It is only the gross ignorance of theists, along with a tiny handful of delusional religious scientists, who claim otherwise. We have the fossils AND the radiometric dating. We win and have for the last 150 years. Scientist have put up with two court cases were creationists got pwned. Do you guys want to be beat a third time? Stop denying it, read a book, goto school, all learn the truth.
Evolution rules, science proves, religion fools.
I will definitely Vote for Obama despite this minor disagreement the main thing is that he is a Christian and he will be a good leader for this country. I don’t think that being Christian excludes one from actually thinking when they go in a voting booth.
I personally do believe that God created the earth. Read Mark 10 verse 15 and that will tell you why I believe in the Bible.
God could have used millions of years of evolution but because he is God could also have literally used 6 days. If you believe in God then why limit him to science.
“Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. ” Mark 10:15
If people say that my faith is childish then I say “darn right!”.
On Obama stating he is a Christian. I do not understand how a Christian can accept evolution. This is against God’s Word based in Genesis. Also, I do not understand how Obama can state he is a Christian and be Pro-Choice and Pro-Gay Rights. Also, he stated that the Sermon on the Mount was radical for our time. These are a few of his beliefs that he have stated boldly. People, as Christians, we have to do the right thing morally and denounce him by not voting for him. As Christians, we should either not vote at all or vote for McCain if you just want to vote.
I say to those who believe in evolution, if you think we evolved from monkeys-you know your kinfolks better than I. There is no time boundaries for God, 1 day is like 1000 years, and 1000 years is like 1 day. Also have you ever noticed how water affects something? After you soak yourself in a hot bath for a time, what happens to your skin? your palms, your feet…they become rinkled, and appeared aged. It does the same to land, which supports the evidence that the earth was covered with water. A flood that Noah prepared for and survived. This is America and whether you believe in God or not, this country was founded and built on Christian values. I respect each person’s right to believe as they wish and I expect the same.
Francis Crick, one of the two scientists credited with the discovery of the double-helix structure of DNA formulated the Central Dogma which says information cannot pass from protein to protein or from protein to nucleic acid, but only from nucleic acid to nucleic acid or from nucleic acid to protein. What that means is that there is nothing an organism can experience or ingest that will make any changes to its DNA. That is science a hundred years beyond Darwin that by itself proves changing into other species by natural selection is impossible.
This Evolution vs. Creationsim is the most important issue in politics and in faith. Because all laws of man are based off of it. For instance, if evolution is true law comes from man’s opinion because there is no creator(democracy). In contrast, if there is a creator the laws reflect that of the creator’s law(Constitutional Republic). Evolution is the most dangerous religion in our society, because it yields racism, abortion, totalitarianism, environmentalism, and genocide(Hitler believe Jews were the most ape-like race). And I don’t buy the theistic Evolution positions, because their position is saying yes and no at the same time. There is no grey on this topic, because Theistic Evolutionists are calling the creator a liar when contradicting the seven day creation story of the bible. If one thing in the Bible is proven wrong I will call it trash and claim myself as a monkey right now, but no scientist has disproved the seven day creation of man, which is why I believe in a Creator who loves us more than we can imagine and through the Father, Spirit, and Son we are saved by grace.
“If one thing in the Bible is proven wrong I will call it trash and claim myself as a monkey right now, but no scientist has disproved the seven day creation of man, which is why I believe in a Creator who loves us more than we can imagine and through the Father, Spirit, and Son we are saved by grace.”
Anyone can write a book that can’t be proven wrong, your reasoning is absolutely ridiculous. You have the weakest position I have ever seen a theist take, you are literally saying you believe in a book because it can’t be disproven? even a monkey knows how this makes no sense
“If one thing in the Bible is proven wrong, I will call it trash and claim myself as a monkey..” Here is the one thing: That Jesus is Son of God was accepted in a council in Anatolia. From then on, the metaphorical expression of “son of God” acquired a metaphysical meaning. Jesus is son of God only in the sense that all pharaos of Egypt are sons of God and so are Alexander the Great and Roman Emperors.
On the first page of the bible it says “And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.”
It is clear that god does not understand that the sun is a star. Therefore god is not all-knowing and religion is BS.
I’m noted that obama said that he believed in evolution. Because nobody has ever seen it taking place. Nobody has ever seen a creature turn into another kind of creature. Therefore evolution is also a religion, one being tought in schools all over the world. So why can’t we teach creation if we wish.
And with the question about why the world was created in 6 24-hour days.
Well plant were created on day 3, the sun on day 4 and insects, witch polanate the plants, were created on day 5. Now 24 hours are no problem but if you’ve got long periods of time between the days… Man you got a real problem on yur hands there.
People should atleast think it through before they make such dumb statements.
Hello Kenny. To disprove evolution it is absurd to say that nobody has ever seen one creature turn into another. The process is gradual over millenia if not millions of years.
Your comment shows how little effort you have made to understand the theory of evolution.
Did you know that after after conception a human embryo goes through various transformations in which it has at some point gills as well as a rudimentary tail?
This is because we have evolved from life forms that at one stage had them.
I don’t see how teaching intelligent design is the same as teaching “religion.”
No one has ever seen anything evolve?
http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
You made some good points there. I did a search on the topic and found most people will agree with your blog.
“We have the fossils AND the radiometric dating. We win and have for the last 150 years.” -Draconis
Sorry guy, but radio metric dating is not always accurate…you should take a geology class!
Come on now, evolution is a theory!! and obama didn’t state that. let’s face it, scientists think they know everything and are ALWAYS proven WRONG!! they thought they knew everything when the cell was considered the tiniest particle in existence, or that our universe stood alone in space. or the center of the universe was earth; that the continents could never have been “pushed” into their current locations! all wrong!
You can call creationism a theory but so is evolution! and honestly scientists discredit themselves by calling evolution a FACT, because fact leaves no room for error or growth in knowledge!!
Evolution WILL be proven wrong through science if we continue to expand our knowledge.
I’m british, and all I can say as I’m quite appalled by the lack of basic evolutionary science in America.
All I read here, is the same old redundant creationist arguments by people who have absolutely no clue what-so-ever how basic science works.
“scientists think they know everything”
Really? And when was that statement ever made? Science is the search for the truth.
If a discovery is made, that discovery will better help us understand how something works. In the future, there might be a new discovery which will change or add to that discovery - increasing our knowledge of said discovery.
This goes with evolutionary theory also. For example, they recently decoded the gnome for an Neanderthal “proving” it was indeed a seperate species from human. This added to the previous evidence from fossils and excavations that they were indeed different.
Science is all about the evidence. They don’t claim to know all the answers, but simply “Evidence suggests/proves”.
Godidit is not science - it never will be.
Here’s another example:
100’s of years ago, people thought thunder was created by the angry gods.
At the time, science was basic and people accepted that this was the case. As time went on our understanding of earths weather got better, we found out that liquid and ice particles freeze and collide building up electrical fields which eventually attract to the land below.
This was proved via SCIENCE. The argument of goddidit is now redundant. It’s the exact same as Evolution, but apparently as it conflicts with a 3 thousand year old book written by desert goat herders - it can’t be true.
Seriously, do you ever wonder where the term “Stupid American” comes from? Your not doing yourself or the smarter/liberal types any justice in the eyes of the educated world, and frankly it’s just embarrassing for America.
I really hope Obama sorts this problem, simply via education, then maybe America can join the rest of us in our low crime, low abortion liberal societies.
And one last thing. Those who seem to think evolution supports any kind of racism, genocide, nazi propoganda should really learn a little history also.
“I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord..” - Adolf Hitler
Religion is a disease, and the more educated people become, the more we can look forward to a better humanity for all.
Thanks for your time
Science should be taught in schools. Yet, evolution shouldn’t? Makes no sense.
For example. Science is to a classroom, as religion is to a church. Evolution is a part of science just as creationism is a part of religion.
It would like asking the church to cut out creationism in church. Can’t happen shouldn’t happen.